Original interview in Ukrainian by Serhiy Leshchenko, UP
Translated by Eugene Ivantsov
To interview Yulia Tymoshenko one must go 300 or even 500 km away from Kyiv. It depends on her election tour.
This conversation took place in Poltava after a half an hour rally in this city and an hour rally in Kremenchug and meeting with representatives of small business…
It is 9 p.m. Mrs. Tymoshenko is having a cup of green tea. Live air on local TV is her program item. After that Yulia Tymoshenko goes to Sumy and Chernihiv regions without returning to Kyiv. Such schedule will end on September 28 on the last day of permitted agitation when Mrs. Tymoshenko is going to hold the last rally. That is how she is going to live through another election in her life.
– Election campaign is almost over. Whatareyourimpressions? How much do you sleep?
– I grossly violate all sanitary standards and requirements of the Labor Code. Sometimes I manage to have a five hour sleep…
– What is your forecast for September 30?
– I do not want to make any forecasts. I travel countrywide and watch people’s attitude changing rapidly. I believe that changes, and more importantly positive changes, are taking place every day.
It is no use carrying out polls now because the results will dramatically change even before the first preliminary official election outcome. Making forecasts one admits that the voters’ attitude is stable. Let this attitude change until the morning of September 30.
I am sure that we will receive much more votes than everybody expects. I remember they forecast us 1.5% in 2002 but we received 7.26%.
In 2006, all Gallup Polls forecast 11-13% but we received about 22%. Thanks God they forecast 22-25% for us now. But I am sure we will have more.
– It is obvious that you were used as a means to dissolve parliament and destroy the anticrisis coalition. Are there any guarantees that the early election will not end in formation of a broad coalition between the Party of Regions and Our Ukraine?
– It is a big question who used whom. As to the coalition, we must admit that guarantees are nothing in Ukrainian politics.
You know they give a one-year guarantee for home appliances. In would be great if it was a one day guarantee in Ukrainian politics. There are more guarantees in a toaster or a frying pan than in National Unity Pacts, Memorandums, decrees and agreements altogether.
Today, all political forces are taking care of their political future. I would like to remind that the country will have presidential election in 2010.
I think that Our Ukraine and Mr. President are interested in formation of a democratic coalition and government to consolidate our efforts in support of a single candidate for president.
If democratic forces have enough votes to form a coalition they will go for it.
However, we cannot always count on accidents and good mood of the politicians. That is why are working hard to receive 226 seats in parliament. I do not think we are too far from it.
– ... well, no party has ever received the majority of seats in parliament in the entire modern history of Ukraine…
– Some time things happen for the first time. Do you think it is impossible that the history book will read: “In 2007, for the first time in Ukraine’s history one political force received the majority of seats in parliament?” I think it is possible. And this must be BYuT.
– You have previously told Ukrayinska Pravda that you always knew you would be the head of state…
– Besides, I wanted to be a doctor, Little Red Riding Hood or Peter Pan (laughs). It is not the office that matters for me.
– All politicians say that!
– You know, Serhiy, if power was my obsession, then, believe me, I would have been the head of government for ten years now without any Orange Revolutions and early elections.
I am not obsessed by power. The doorplate “Yulia Tymoshenko. The Prime Minister of Ukraine” arouses no extraordinary emotions. It is important for me to have the opportunity of changing the country for the better.
If I have such an opportunity feeling that we are one team with the strong government I will have no reasons to run for president competing with the team member.
– But let’s imagine such a situation: the Orange lack seats in parliament and the Party of Regions chooses the coalition partner between Our Ukraine and the Communist Party. As a result the coalition of Our Ukraine and the Party of Regions is formed. What would you do? Would you consider this decision betrayal performed by Our Ukraine?
– I do not think that so many people will vote for the Party of Regions. One must be masochist to step on the same rakes twice and wait for “improvement of living standards today.” Look at their ads on TV! Who directed those ads? Was it a stand up comedian? Was it Comedy Club?
“The prices are down, petrol is cheaper, meat is almost free.” Who do they think Ukrainian people are? Do they think Ukrainians are idiots?
The Party of Regions election campaign reminds me of Soviet-time polemics when in response to accusations of the US that there was no freedom of speech and conscience in the USSR, the Soviet government said: “But you kill black people!”
– Still, you did not answer the question. If the Orange lack seats and Our Ukraine forms coalition with the Party of Regions…
– It does not matter for me. If a broad coalition is formed we will be getting ready for the presidential election.
Even potatoes agitate for Tymoshenko during this election campaign
– Òîáòî òàêèì ÷èíîì âè áåðåòå "Íàøó Óêðà¿íó" íà ãà÷îê...
– So, you want to catch Our Ukraine in such a way…
– No. Our Ukraine is not a fish to swallow the bait. One must catch this fish with the net or even with the dynamite. I am kidding… (smiles)
In a word, one must be a poacher to pursue own political course especially during the political ‘spawning’ (i.e. formation of different coalitions and entering into different political alliances).
In fact, the situation is absolutely clear! Our team believes that the power is the only way to bring order to the country. We will always strive for reforming of all spheres of life in Ukraine.
It is as clear as a war. If democratic coalition has enough votes then only democratic coalition will be formed.
I am almost convinced that Communists will not enter this parliament. Do you remember the year 2002 when sociologists forecast 8% for Women for Future and The Green Party? Where are these parties now?
I think that Communists will have an excellent opportunity to get back to the roots (i.e. to go underground). It is most likely that three political forces will be represented in the new parliament and then, obviously we will form a democratic coalition.
– Still, let’s imagine that the Party of Regions and Our Ukraine form a coalition, you get ready for the presidential election and Mr. Yushchenko runs for president as well. Obviously, two Orange candidates will scatter votes and thus lose to Yanukovych.
– No! Why do you think so? (Mrs. Tymoshenko gives a cunning smile and lowers her voice)
You forgot that the presidential election has two stages. Two strongest candidates will pass to the second stage. There will be no scattering of votes.
– Do you think Mr. Yushchenko must run for the second presidential term?
– The next two years will give an answer to this question. If we form a normal democratic coalition and a strong government, thus bringing order to the country, then his running for the second term might be reasonable.
– You proposed to call an all-national referendum regarding the new Constitution. The first item of the referendum read “liquidate the PM’s office. The government must be chaired be the President”. This means shift to the presidential republic. The second item read “liquidate the president’s office. The country is run by the PM”. This means shift to the parliamentary republic. How would Yulia Tymoshenko vote if this referendum took place?
– (Pauses) I think that politicians must not pressure mass consciousness.
I do not what to make public my possible choice because I am convinced that both parliamentary and presidential models are acceptable in case they are well-thought and legally supported.
In fact, if properly structured and balanced there is no difference between these models. President of France Nikola Sarkozy is a great president but this does not mean that Angela Merkel must be called the president but not German Chancellor.
It is nature of things that matters for BYuT. It is important that people give a clear answer.
If it is important for most people that the president must be the head of state then we need to adopt presidential model of power. However it must be balanced with a system of restrictions, a strong opposition, independent court system and mass media. The president must in no way become the Tsar.
On the other hand, if people choose parliamentary model then the president’s office is unnecessary. The country will be run by the Chancellor or the PM.
– It may seem that you act as a weathercock leaving space for maneuver depending on your ambitions either for the president’s of the PM’s office.
– I can afford speaking that way because we will win both presidential and parliamentary campaigns if we set such a goal. It is important for us that the political system is comfortable for the public.
– But what is your choice here?
– We will be happy to accept both presidential and parliamentary models because either of them will be better than chaos or anarchy.
– At every rally you mention Mr. Yanukovych’s inconsistency regarding NATO issue. You claim that Yanukovych agitates against NATO but at the same time you quote his interview where he stated that he would support NATO membership for Ukraine. There is a question you have never answered: would Yulia Tymoshenko vote for or against NATO membership if the referendum took place tomorrow? It is a yes/no question. Just give a short answer.
– Here is a short answer. I think that Ukraine cannot be alone in the world. Our country must be a member of the collective defense system. Modern world has very serious challenges and it is difficult to respond to these challenges alone. If you want to know my opinion, I would make every effort to develop the European system of collective defense.
– That means that you would vote against Ukraine joining NATO? Am I correct?
– I would vote for Ukraine joining the developing European collective defense system where Ukraine could take an active part alongside with other European countries.
– But it is not fair! YoureproachYanukovychwithNATO. However, when you are asked about your vote at the possible referendum you give no answer.
– I think that Mr. Yanukovych became somewhat confused in abbreviations. NATO, AIDS, OSCE, OPEC, NKVD, what else?
Personally I think that the NATO issue is not the matter of primary of even secondary importance for Ukraine. Unity of the nation, territorial integrity of the county and higher social standards are more important than joining any organization.
If NATO issue splits the country in 2007 then let’s wait for the years 2008 or 2009 without scaring henpecked people. Our politicians have cowed them so much that they expect vicious NATO soldiers to burn their homes singing “Deutschland, Deutschland!” at the same time just on the first day of Ukraine’s membership in this organization.
Politicians parasitize on the NATO issue substituting discussion of the NATO membership for Ukraine with the World War II rhetoric. The issue of joining collective defense system if the issue social evolution. First, we need to unite the country and only then pose such questions.
– During the rallies you often mention DniproEnergo which, according to you, Rynat Akhmetov presented his son for September 1. What is the future of this enterprise in case of your victory?
– Ukraine lost DniproEnergo which had been stolen. Now, courts are hearing this case. And I am sure it will be determination of law.
Why did mass media, including Ukrayinska Pravda, start publishing articles with the headlines like “Tymoshenko goes hard on Akhmetov”, “Tymoshenko declared war on Rynat” and so on? Nothing of the kind! I would have the same position if DniproEnergo had been stolen by some Mr. Smith or Mr. Black…
I just want to stop the trend of unpunished ripping off the country. Moreover, our opponents do not plead guilty and do not regret of what they have done. They have not changed. They remained the same as they used to be in 2004.
Today, the Internet is full of banners like “It is good that Akhmetov saved DniproEnergo.” However, it is just stealing from the state. If we do not stop them they will never stop themselves.
They want to ‘swallow’ everything the state has. By the way, there is information in mass media that Rynat Akhmetov will soon control Kyivmiskbud. (Kyiv building company)
Finally, I understood the part of the Party of Regions election program where they state their readiness to support Ukrainian citizens from birth up to the mature age.
There remains one thing to do. They need to privatize maternity hospitals, churches and morgues. Then such ‘support’ will be complete. The biography of an ordinary Ukrainian citizen will read: “Born in Akhmetov maternity hospital, baptized in the Yanukovych Church, attended Azarov kindergarten. Finally finished Kolesnikov High School and was employed in Klyuev Company. Buried at Kiselyov cemetery.”
This is an attempt of total control over the people and society. It is George Orwell, 1984. Financial dictatorship is the best dictatorship ever!
– Is it true that the President’s Secretariat went into a huddle with Mr. Akhmetov in order to neutralize legal mechanisms that would stop Mr. Akhmetov from assuming control over DniproEnergo?
– I think that the president must issue a decree suspending the government resolution on such illegal way of DniproEnergo privatization and forward this resolution to the Constitutional Court. That is what the president is obliged to do.
I cannot analyze who agreed with whom… I can only guess. But if the president is aware of this corrupt scheme, then he must issue a decree to suspend the government resolution.
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Visiting Khmelnytsk region: Tymoshenko, cows and Louis Vuitton |
– Recently, during the meeting with businessmen held last week in Hyatt Hotel, you touched upon re-privatization issue. You said that “forgive me but everything stolen from the state but be returned to state ownership.” You also mentioned that owners of petroleum refineries did not comply with investment liabilities. Does this mean that after your return to power you will bring petroleum refineries back under state ownership to re-sell them?
– I would like to remind that the term “re-privatization” was invented by our oligarchs out of fear. They were so scared that they needed the defense.
What is the true story? When Kuchma’s era had ended the new authority (I was the PM then) wanted to have a look what had happened to state property for the ten years of Kuchma’s reign. It was for the first time that a living human being wanted to inspect those documents!
The Prosecutor General’s Office carried out the relevant analysis on the government’s errand. In a month, Deputy Prosecutor General Tetyana Kornyakova came to the government sitting with a thick folder having stated that according to the most conservative estimates, the state had lost over three thousand enterprises.
That is how the myth about “300 enterprises which Tymoshenko wants to take away from Pinchuk” emerged. In fact, during the seven months of my premiership I did not use the word “re-privatization” once!
Re-privatization and nationalization are synonyms. This process is implemented through adoption of re-privatization bills. The state needs to pursue special policy leaving the re-privatization issue in the competence of the court system. Any disputes must be resolved in courts. It is not in government’s competence. My government will not do that. I would like to repeat: “It will not!”
But I never promised that courts and law-enforcement bodies would be idle, I never promised that criminals, corruption and shadow privatization would be protected by the state.
If the president has a very good slogan “Law is for everybody” then the state must have the same attitude to ‘carnappers’ and embezzlers of state-owned property. If a person broke the law he must bear responsibility. But it is beyond the government’s competence. Courts and the prosecutor offices are in charge of it.
– What are the main mistakes in the BYuT election campaign?
– We are doing great both in villages and cities. I would say it is a perfect election campaign.
– It was reported last week that Yosyp Vinsky was unwell? It is true he has been poisoned?
– No! It is because of overfatigue. Mr. Vinsky is working so hard that his body temporarily gives up. Women are so much stronger. (laughs)
– Did you have all members of the BYuT election list sign a commitment to voluntarily resign from parliament in the event of violating the faction discipline?
– Yes. We have such a document. I think all candidates will sign it before the election.
– Do you think ads on TV about Vanga and Nostradamus have their positive effect?
– I do not know. We will see after election…
– Soon, early election of Kyiv’s mayor may be held. Will you support Vitaliy Klitschko or nominate your own candidate? According to some information, this may be Oleksandr Turchynov.
– I do not think it will be Mr. Turchynov. We will have our own candidate for the mayor’s office.
– Klitschko?
– No. It will be the BYuT member.
– You said that solidarism is a cornerstone of your ideology. Solidarism implies that owner of the enterprise must share profit with workers. Did you offer, for instance, Kostyantyn Zhevago to share profit from his enterprises with the people working there? That would be a good start to implement your ideology.
– I sincerely believe that the harmonic society will be built only when the owner shares with the workers three times.
The first time is when he pays decent wages, while the second time being pay for minor shares. The third time comes when he shares profit with the workers. This is possible through decrease of the profit tax. Both owners and workers contribute to the overall profit of the enterprise.
Today, businessmen often say: “We understand that some of your initiatives will not be welcome in the business environment. But we support you because we are tired of living in the criminal world.”
– You said in Kremenchug that four of your relatives ran business. What kind of business is it?
– Look. It is private life of my relatives.
– Yuriy Lutsenko had the same position when he forgot where his wife worked.
– I do not want to say that I do not know where they work. I do not want my relatives to get involved into Ukrainian dirty politics.
– We are a democratic country. We do not fear Kuchma any more!
– We are. But there is the right of privacy. I want my relatives stay out of politics. I can explain why. Most of my relatives have been in prison only because they were my relatives and friends.
Those were the times when my husband, father and I were in prison while my mother and mother-in-law spent long hours in the Prosecutor General’s Office. When I became the Vice PM and started reforms in the energy field my husband was arrested.
Then Leonid Kuchma passed the word through Turchynov: “We will set her free if she stops doing what she was doing.”
But we survived. I am proud of my family. My daughter who then studied abroad was allowed to see her father. But having come to Ukraine she was summoned to the Prosecutor General’s Office.
– But people need to know about your family business. What if they win some tender after you come to power?!
– We have law-enforcement bodies, Interior Ministry, the Prosecutor General’s Office, other controlling organizations.
– But these organizations will be subordinated to you in the event you become the PM. It is public that must control politicians and authority.
– Do you not forget that we are going to grant the controlling rights to the opposition, represented by the Party of Regions? (laughs) By the way, the first bill we will pass in the new parliament is the Law on the Opposition.
– But having read this interview readers will notice that you are reluctant to answer a very simple question about your family business. Thus, they may think you conceal something.
– There is nothing to conceal. But I want to protect my family. I know they run a legal business. I am not in power to give preferences to anybody…
– But you are going to be in power…
– When I am in power asked about $6 million transferred to my husband’s firm then I will give an answer.
– What six million are you talking about?
– You mentioned Lutsenko, didn’t you? There were accusations of the money transfer. What I want to say is that I will give an answer when asked such a question.
