David Seymour: Volunteers from New Zealand are fighting in Ukraine for the idea that smaller countries can’t be bullied by larger ones

"I can't afford a nuclear bunker, so I'm trying to prevent a global catastrophe," jokes David Seymour, Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand, Minister for Regulation, and leader of the conservative ACT Party.

The 42-year-old politician is the first New Zealander to receive a Ukrainian state award – the Order of Merit, Third Class, presented "for supporting sovereignty, charitable efforts, and promoting Ukraine worldwide". A Ukrainian flag stands on his desk in his Auckland office. Seymour is one of the few New Zealand politicians openly advocating for military as well as humanitarian aid for Ukraine.

New Zealand has been a staunch and unwavering supporter of Ukraine in this war, regularly providing injections of financial and other aid. The public sees this support as a matter of justice, while politicians frame it as a civilisational choice. New Zealanders have been on the front lines since the early weeks of the full-scale invasion, and there are civilian volunteers working close to the front.

Ukrainska Pravda spoke with David Seymour about support for Ukraine, possible scenarios for the world's future and for the Russo-Ukrainian war in particular, nuclear bunkers, adventurous people living at the edge of the world, and liberal values as a kind of civic faith.

People forget that the war in Ukraine is ongoing

Has New Zealanders' attitude towards supporting Ukraine changed over these four years?

There's now a real danger of losing that initial determination and willingness to continue supporting Ukraine. I remember when the invasion happened, The New York Times had "Russia Invades Ukraine" in big letters right across the top of the website, and it was like that for a couple of weeks. Now it's pretty hard to find the bit about Ukraine.

I think that one of the dangers is that people forget, and that's why I've kept running fundraisers. I plan to run another one for the fourth anniversary later this month, to keep people aware of this problem.

People argue about every dollar that the government spends. But most New Zealanders understand that it's important to support Ukraine. It's also important that our troops who are training Ukrainians are learning about modern warfare, which is changing almost every week.

So there are benefits for us too, apart from being the right thing to do. Ukraine can teach the entire world a great deal, unfortunately, because it has had to gain the most intense combat experience.

How is New Zealand helping Ukraine in its war with Russia?

Our government has been committed to supporting Ukraine since 24 February 2022. Even before President Zelensky spoke to our Parliament, we were giving assistance. We were among the first to do so.

There's a division between government and private support, and I'm involved in both of those.

As a government, we have been sending troops to train Ukrainian soldiers; we've been sending aid to Ukraine and we will continue to do that.We've also opened up a policy with a specific visa for Ukrainians who've been displaced and have close family here, and would like to relocate to New Zealand.

On the private side, there's been a lot of fundraising. I personally have organised fundraisers that have raised around NZ$150,000 (around US$90,500), which we have sent to Ukraine to buy radio equipment, vehicles, woollen clothing, all sorts of things to help the defenders.

I have a very good friend, Mariia Semikova, the wife of another good friend of mine. Unfortunately Mariia's father was killed in the early days of the Russian invasion. Mariia and her husband Fred have been fundraising and sending material to Ukraine throughout the war, and they actually encouraged me to do the same thing from New Zealand.

There are many New Zealanders who care deeply about the situation in Ukraine and the Ukrainian people. Some volunteer; some have been fighting on the front lines as volunteers. Very sadly, some have been killed.

They were fighting for a principle and an idea which is important to New Zealand: that smaller countries can't just be bullied by larger countries. That idea is very important to us.

How do you see the future of the world in general, and of the Russo-Ukrainian war in particular?

Most wars are stupid. There's usually one person who has a crazy idea, and a whole lot of people with nothing better to do than go and follow them.

I don't think the Russians are going to end anything this time. Maybe themselves.

I don't think Russia can carry on forever. I think the Ukrainian forces' use of drones has the potential to break through and really collapse Russian society. And I also think that Putin now faces an impossible situation: if he takes all the troops home, they will create chaos in Russia, but if he leaves them in Ukraine, they will collapse.

I think it's only a matter of time – I don't see a scenario where the Russians break through.

A "Switzerland of the Pacific"?

New Zealand has a history of fear of a Russian threat dating back to the 19th century. I was told about four military forts that were built in different parts of the country in case of Russian aggression in the Pacific. One of them, now abandoned, is in Wellington. Some local Ukrainians showed it to me, and the scale of it is impressive.

It's true – I studied at the University of Auckland, and in the middle of the university there remain fortifications which were designed in case the Russians came to New Zealand in the late 1800s.

New Zealand is very lucky that since the arrival of the British in the late 1700s, we've been protected by the British Navy, and since the 1940s we've been protected by the American Navy, which has really prevented any hostile powers from getting here. But if that was to change, then our situation would be different.

It's certainly important that we improve our own defence along with Australia in order to ensure our ongoing security.

The New Zealand government has issued White Papers which show that we are more concerned about our security than in the past.

How do you assess the current global political situation, particularly the state of NATO? What challenges does this create for New Zealand?

I thought that the Canadian prime minister's recent speech was very interesting to a country like New Zealand.

What Mark Carney described is how New Zealand has behaved for some decades.

We make friends where there is something to gain, and we maintain our independence. That is how middle-sized countries have to behave in this new world, and that's certainly how New Zealand has behaved for a long time. We call it our independent foreign policy. But it's also important that we increase our armaments, which we are doing, and I'm proud that our government is increasing defence expenditure in New Zealand. I think we've been underspending on defence for too long.

Since 1987, New Zealand has been a nuclear-free zone and even banned all nuclear and potentially nuclear-armed military vessels, regardless of flag, from entering its ports. Some politicians have proposed making the country militarily neutral, a kind of "Switzerland of the Pacific". In today's world, where aggression is becoming the norm, is principled neutrality still relevant?

I don't think New Zealand has ever shirked its moral responsibility – in the world wars, and as recently as Afghanistan, New Zealand has been at the forefront of many conflicts.

So I think despite our nuclear-free position, we've always been prepared to help our friends around the world support democracy. Our nuclear-free position was summed up by our then-Prime Minister David Lange, who said that it is self-contradictory to believe that we need the ability to destroy ourselves, and I think that argument is still strong.

As for the idea of being the "Switzerland of the Pacific", we're not really neutral. We have an alliance with Australia – a very important ally. We often go to war around the world – in Afghanistan, we sent peacekeepers to Bosnia. So we frequently get involved in conflicts that the Swiss probably would not.

New Zealand has a global reputation as a country where there is virtually no corruption. What advice could you offer Ukraine about fighting corruption and creating effective prevention mechanisms?

Well, we're not very good at fighting corruption – we're very lucky that we don't have it! The reason that we don't have much corruption in New Zealand is that people believe deep in themselves that if we give to a greater society, then it will pay us back. And it does.

So when people are asked to do something – follow a law or pay a tax – generally they know that while it's not perfect, they will get something in return. Other people will follow the law, other people will pay the tax, and the money will be used for services for them and their children. Once you realise that, everything is much easier. The challenge is how you get other people to realise that at the same time.

You have Māori heritage on one side of your family and English heritage on the other. That seems like a reflection of the entire country…

I don't focus on ethnic background. I'm more interested in people's ideas than their identities. It's best to take each person as you find them rather than try to stereotype them according to their ethnic background.

You know, New Zealand had a tremendous period in the 1990s and early 2000s – it was an exciting time to be in New Zealand. We've been in decline for the last twenty years. I think the regulatory state got out of control: too many rules, not enough personal responsibility. I don't think it's new to have a model of coexistence with equality before the law and no ethnic preference. That's what New Zealand's always been built on, and our government is now re-establishing a country based on equal rights.

Bunkers on the South Island

Recently, the New Zealand Herald confirmed some long-standing rumours: somewhere in New Zealand, hidden within the scenic landscapes, underground bunkers have been built for the world's wealthiest people, and more are under construction, to be used as shelters in the event of nuclear war. So this raises a moral question: do you hide underground, or act to stop at least Russian aggression and prevent global catastrophe? What are your personal thoughts?

Well, I know that these bunkers exist. I guess people have worked out that the South Island is the best place in the world to survive a nuclear war, so if you have some money and you want to buy a bunker, the South Island could be a good place.

On balance, I think life is getting better, and I think it will keep getting better. But that doesn't mean some things don't get worse in some places at some times. In most countries things are getting better – I mean, life is much better in Africa than it was twenty years ago. Even in places where it's got worse lately, it's still better than it was, say, a hundred years ago.

Forty years ago Ukraine was under Soviet occupation – the whole country. Now you've got a portion of it. I think Ukraine will win, the democracies will triumph, and Russia, Venezuela, Cuba and Iran are going to be pushed back.

Democracies tend to make better decisions, correct more quickly and avoid big mistakes, and they tend to think longer term. Democracies are far better than autocracies in the long term, and that's why they remain popular.

Over the past two centuries, New Zealand has been a refuge for people fleeing wars in their home countries. Much of the population has been formed through waves of migration – people arriving at the "edge of the world". Where do you think the line should be drawn between openness to the world and fear of losing national identity?

You don't have to choose between openness to the world and keeping a national identity so long as you're prepared to uphold liberal values.

If you want to come to New Zealand, you have to accept that men and women are equal, people of different sexualities have the same rights, people have a right to choose their religion, to speak freely, to have the rule of law come to their defence. These are our basic values. So long as you uphold those values, then it doesn't matter.

New Zealanders all have one thing in common: that all of us in the last few hundred years have had to travel a long way. Even Māori came to Aotearoa [their original name for New Zealand] relatively recently in human history. So we are all descended from pioneers. We're adventurous people who were prepared to make a very brave journey in order to be here, and that's what unites us.

Mariia Starozhytska, for UP