US agency declassifies conversation with Bush in which Putin called Ukraine an "artificial country"
In the United States, several transcripts of conversations between Russia's leader Vladimir Putin and former US president George Bush have been published, in which Putin argued that Ukraine is an artificial state with a fragmented society and warned of a long-term confrontation with the West if Ukraine were admitted to NATO.
Source: European Pravda with reference to the non-governmental research institution the National Security Archive
Details: In a conversation dated 16 June 2001, Putin, speaking in a passage about the need for honesty in relations and saying that he senses the mood of Russian society well, spoke about his disappointment with the changes that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Quote from the transcript: "What really happened? Soviet good will changed the world, voluntarily. And Russians gave up thousands of square kilometers of territory, voluntarily. Unheard of. Ukraine, part of Russia for centuries, given away. Kazakhstan, given away. The Caucasus, too. Hard to imagine, and done by party bosses."
More details: The conversation of 6 April 2008 includes a passage in which Putin tells Bush of his view of Ukraine as an artificial state and says that its accession to NATO is absolutely unacceptable to Moscow.
"It won't be new to you, and I don't expect a response; I just want to say it out loud. I'd like to emphasise accession to NATO of a country like Ukraine will create for the long-term a field of conflict for you and us, long-term confrontation," Putin said.
In response to Bush's follow-up question, he describes Ukraine as an "artificial country" with a highly fragmented society.
"Seventeen million Russians live in Ukraine – a third of the population. Ukraine is a very complex state. This is not a nation built in a natural manner. It's an artificial country created back in Soviet times. Following World War II Ukraine obtained territory from Poland, Romania and Hungary – that's pretty much all of western Ukraine. In the 1920s and 1930s Ukraine obtained territory from Russia – that's the eastern part of the country. In 1956, the Crimean peninsula was transferred to Ukraine. [...] It's populated by people with very different mindsets. If you go to western Ukraine you'll see villages where the only spoken language is Hungarian and people wear those bonnets. In the east, people are wearing suits, ties and big hats. NATO is perceived by a large part of the Ukrainian population as a hostile organisation," the transcript says.
From there, Putin goes on to explain that Ukraine's potential accession to NATO would create problems for Russia.
"This creates the threat of military bases and new military systems being deployed in the proximity of Russia. It created uncertainties and threats for us. And relying on the anti-NATO forces in Ukraine, Russia would be working on stripping NATO of the possibility of enlarging. Russia would be creating problems there all the time. What for? What is the meaning of Ukrainian membership in NATO? What benefit is there for NATO and the US? There can be only one reason for it and that would be to cement Ukraine's status as in the Western world and that would be the logic. I don't think it's the right logic. [...] And given the divergent views of areas of the population on NATO membership, the country could just split apart. I always said there's a certain pro-Western part, and a certain pro-Russia part," Putin argues, adding that Ukraine's political life reflects these contradictions and that the pro-Western forces who came to power after the Orange Revolution immediately fell out with one another.
"The issue there is not accession to NATO, but to ensure the self-sufficiency of Ukraine. Also, their economy should be strengthened," he said.
Background:
- On 24 December, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for the first time revealed the contents of a 20-point peace plan agreed with the United States.
- Zelenskyy also stressed that Ukraine is not agreeing to the demand to abandon its idea of NATO membership, which had been included in the Trump team's original 28-point plan.
- Signals have since come from Moscow that Russia will demand substantial changes to the draft peace plan agreed by Ukraine and the United States.
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